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Discussion: "Obligatory" Organ DonationReported This is a featured thread

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Randall_Berger
Randall_Berger
"Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 22 2008, 2:13 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2008, 2:13 AM EST
Bite the bullet and enact the opt-out, obligatory organ donation scheme, like they have in Europe ... save billions and get all those hundreds of people dying on organ waiting lists back into society.

Only one in so many people die under the right circumstances and then things have to happen quickly. Unless the deceased has opted out of the scheme for religious or cultural reasons, the health system should be able to use this final gift.

Australia has invested a lot in you over the years … education, health care, social support … why take something so valuable to your grave? Consider it the final Medicare levy.

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Posted Anonymously
1. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 25 2008, 6:06 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 25 2008, 6:06 AM EST
I agree with the opt out approach too. But education is also important. In many cases relatives and loved ones intervene to prevent organ donation. So we would need to make sure that relatives, etc understand and accept that if someone has not opted out, their organs will be considered for donation. I also like the idea of giving people who have agreed to doante their organs priority over those that havent if they ever need to be put on a waiting list to receive a donation from someone else.
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Randall_Berger
Randall_Berger
2. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 25 2008, 4:01 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 25 2008, 4:01 PM EST
"Bite the bullet and enact the opt-out, obligatory organ donation scheme, like they have in Europe ... save billions and get all those hundreds of people dying on organ waiting lists back into society.

Only one in so many people die under the right circumstances and then things have to happen quickly. Unless the deceased has opted out of the scheme for religious or cultural reasons, the health system should be able to use this final gift.

Australia has invested a lot in you over the years … education, health care, social support … why take something so valuable to your grave? Consider it the final Medicare levy.

"

That whole idea of "next of kin" having some legal guardianship over my body bothers me ... where does it say that? I suspect it is some kind of archaic social custom that nobody has bothered to challenge.

For a minor, I agree, because I am the legal guardian of my children, but as an adult, where does it say my wife, children or parents have some sort of legal rights to my body as soon as my last breath is drawn ... or I am brain dead?

If they tried that while I was alive, the system would put them in their place. I think this custom should be challenged ... with all due respect ... and my body can be released to them when the system that protected and nurtured me is through with it.

I agree, education ... or a few more celebrity "donations" ... will help, but let's clear up the legals, as well.

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DoubleThinkBlog
3. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 25 2008, 10:03 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 25 2008, 10:03 PM EST
This is a sick Orwellian idea.. how can you plan to harvest people like crops, it is dehumanising. We are entitled to our bodies and it is one of the most unchallengeable pieces of property over which any individual claims property rights. You have no right to steal other peoples body parts. 4  out of 26 found this valuable. Do you?    
Randall_Berger
Randall_Berger
4. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 26 2008, 12:34 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 26 2008, 12:34 AM EST
"This is a sick Orwellian idea.. how can you plan to harvest people like crops, it is dehumanising. We are entitled to our bodies and it is one of the most unchallengeable pieces of property over which any individual claims property rights. You have no right to steal other peoples body parts."

You just don't get it, do you. They're not 'stealing' your organs. You are entitled to your body. Nobody says you're not. Just opt out.

Yet you demand the health service make your body better, educate it, subsidise its drugs, make sure its well fed, housed and protected ... and when you're ticker starts to go ... your eyes, lungs, kidneys ... you beg the system to make you whole again.

You sit on dialysis for years, costing the very same health system millions, until finally you die ... or someone generous enough dies under the right circumstances so you receive their final gift.

I think it is incredibly selfish to expect the system to do everything for you and then you take to your grave something that will help up to 9 other people live whole lives again. And save enough $$$ to build a lot of new hospitals!

Orwellian? No, maybe Huxleyan ... but when you're dead meat, who would you rather help ... a bunch or worms or maggots or your fellow human beings?

I'm not talking about harvesting people like crops ... that is sick ... very few people die under the right conditions anyway ... but who are we stealing the body parts from, anyway? YOU'RE DEAD!

Look, if you don't want your organs donated, simply register to opt out. If your religion or culture says your organs can only go to another person of the same ilk, then register that fact.

As the law stands, your so called 'next of kin' can go against your wishes to donate your organs, even if you register as an organ donor. I find that sick.

We have the health technology and the skill to do the transplants now with great success, but selfish people like you are taking a valuable commodity to the grave or turining it into ashes.

I really hope you don't need a transplant one day. Or one of your children. I almost couldn't stand the irony.

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Posted Anonymously
5. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 26 2008, 6:55 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 26 2008, 6:55 PM EST
This would not work for people of certain religions who must take their entire body to the grave. You would be discriminating against them. That's not a fair go. 8  out of 18 found this valuable. Do you?    

DoubleThinkBlog
6. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 26 2008, 9:34 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 26 2008, 9:34 PM EST
Well how about you let me opt-out of the entire medical system.. We would millions of hard working and saving individuals abandon the sinking ship and make their own medical decisions, instead of having the government rob us the economy of 40%-50% of GDP and spending it on ever-increasing budgets for the public sector. 2  out of 17 found this valuable. Do you?    

Posted Anonymously
7. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 26 2008, 10:40 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 26 2008, 10:40 PM EST
"This would not work for people of certain religions who must take their entire body to the grave. You would be discriminating against them. That's not a fair go."

As I said, this system would allow anyone to "opt out" under ground like religion, etc. However, two of the countries where an opt out system has been a complete success are France and Italy, which are heavily Catholic ... who like to be buried whole.

I for one would go to my grave with a lighter soul for having given of myself in the ultimate way ... and I would never feel a thing!
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DoubleThinkBlog
9. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Feb 28 2008, 6:07 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 28 2008, 6:07 PM EST
I don't agree with you. How can our bodies be "communal" property ? How can they belong to the state ? That means that the government of the day can do what they want with your body. Aren't all you extremists on the left passionate about a woman's right to her body and right to choose and have abortions, - yet you are willing to throw that out the window when it comes to body parts being harvested from the dead ? ?

There exists a private market for donating organs once you have passed on. It is done by consenting and voluntary transactions. That is the only way it should be done. Not by force or theft or compulsion.
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McManly
McManly
10. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Mar 3 2008, 1:34 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 3 2008, 1:34 AM EST
I, my wife and my children are all committed as organ donors on our driving licences. Many fear taking that step -- we are all science-trained, and so can look at it dispassionately. Why be greedy and selfish when you can help? An opt-out system lets those who feel they MUST avoid it, but the ones in the middle can do good by doing nothing. 13  out of 14 found this valuable. Do you?    
Sympneology
Sympneology
11. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Mar 3 2008, 10:00 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 3 2008, 10:00 AM EST
Our bodies are not communal property, dead or alive. People do not belong to the state in a democratic system, the state belongs to the people. That is why those employed by the state are called "public servants", they are there to serve the people. When this basic principle is forgotten is when the nation begins to lapse into fascism or despotism.
This is not to say that those elected to parliament cannot enact laws to change from the present opt-in system to an opt-out system, provided they are given a mandate to do so, preferably by a referendum.
I and my wife have both registered as organ donors on the Australian Organ Donor Register at www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/organ, and until an opt-out system is created I would encourage all others to do the same.
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Posted Anonymously
12. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Mar 12 2008, 7:10 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2008, 7:10 AM EDT
Let's not get caught up in the details of the scheme, they can easily be worked out. Surely the important point is to raise the profile of the idea as a very simple and relatively cheap solution to a major problem so that it might be included for consideration in the forum. 9  out of 11 found this valuable. Do you?    
Randall_Berger
Randall_Berger
13. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Jun 8 2008, 9:25 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 8 2008, 9:25 PM EDT
"Our bodies are not communal property, dead or alive. People do not belong to the state in a democratic system, the state belongs to the people. "
Well, I have to agree to disagree with you on this point.

The State pays for and regulates just about every aspect of our bodies from the day we are born to the day we die. Health care, education, medicines, law, employment ... why not let them exact their pound of flesh when we cark it ... those organs from your dead husk are worth 100s of 1000s of dollars to the health care system by getting someone off the waiting list.

If you want to keep your organs and feed them to the worms or send them up a chimney as even more carbon emissions, that should be your option, but if you don't have an option, your arse should belong to the State .... they paid enough for it!
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Sympneology
Sympneology
14. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Jun 9 2008, 5:16 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 9 2008, 5:16 AM EDT
"Well, I have to agree to disagree with you on this point.

The State pays for and regulates just about every aspect of our bodies from the day we are born to the day we die.

If you want to keep your organs and feed them to the worms or send them up a chimney as even more carbon emissions, that should be your option, but if you don't have an option, your arse should belong to the State .... they paid enough for it!"
I still maintain that the State belongs to the people. When you say that the "State pays for and regulates just about every aspect of our bodies", where does the State get the money to pay for these things? It gets it from the people, through taxes, rates and charges for services. Look up the meaning of the word 'commonwealth'.

If the people, through a referendum, decide that an opt-out system of organ donation would be to the benefit of the community, then the people's elected representatives should enact legislation to authorise the harvesting of organs as a matter of course. Those non-community-minded individuals who still wished to take their organs to heaven would, of course, be free to opt out of the system. Their bodies are still their own, not the State's.
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Posted Anonymously
15. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Nov 19 2008, 7:19 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 19 2008, 7:19 PM EST
I totally agree with swapping the system from the opt-in to the opt-out system. It works exactly the same, those who want to donate can, those who don't simply don't, while those in the middle who don't seem to cared either way opt to donate by default. If there are concerns about religions and donations and people being ignorant to opting-out then simple exceptions can be made to auto-opt out for a list of provided religions unless the person manually opts-in.

By increasing the number of donations the Australian health system would be dramatically impacted, with the waiting lists slashed, patients stuck on dialysis able to return to normal lives and hundreds of lives saved every year. This not only impacts the individuals, cuts the health care costs but also frees up hospital beds, staff and equipment to other needy patients. The other often over looked impact is the ability for those "saved" patients to return to work and contribute to the community.

An alternative or concurrent system that could be employed to the above proposal could be to run a financial incentive program. If you donate organs your family gets $X towards funeral expenses or you get a payment when you opt-in regardless of whether you donate organs in the end or not.

A similar incentive system could be used for blood donation, which is always an issue. Rather than the red cross paying out money, the government could treat the donation as a tax deduction. Provide a receipt of up to a set number of units at the end of the year for a tax deduction to encourage donations and a reward every year. A cap on units would exist to stop people donating more than the safe limit.
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Posted Anonymously
16. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Nov 20 2008, 12:26 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 20 2008, 12:26 AM EST
"I totally agree with swapping the system from the opt-in to the opt-out system. It works exactly the same, those who want to donate can, those who don't simply don't, while those in the middle who don't seem to cared either way opt to donate by default. If there are concerns about religions and donations and people being ignorant to opting-out then simple exceptions can be made to auto-opt out for a list of provided religions unless the person manually opts-in.

By increasing the number of donations the Australian health system would be dramatically impacted, with the waiting lists slashed, patients stuck on dialysis able to return to normal lives and hundreds of lives saved every year. This not only impacts the individuals, cuts the health care costs but also frees up hospital beds, staff and equipment to other needy patients. The other often over looked impact is the ability for those "saved" patients to return to work and contribute to the community.

An alternative or concurrent system that could be employed to the above proposal could be to run a financial incentive program. If you donate organs your family gets $X towards funeral expenses or you get a payment when you opt-in regardless of whether you donate organs in the end or not.

A similar incentive system could be used for blood donation, which is always an issue. Rather than the red cross paying out money, the government could treat the donation as a tax deduction. Provide a receipt of up to a set number of units at the end of the year for a tax deduction to encourage donations and a reward every year. A cap on units would exist to stop people donating more than the safe limit.
"
Listen, why don't you keep your meddling schemes to steal people's organs to yourselves. Let the free market and private health care providers take care of it. So long as there is an agreement and a voluntary exchange, then government has no business meddling in people's private health matters.

No government laws, no regulations, no system compelling or forbidding people to give their organs.
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Posted Anonymously
17. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Jan 17 2009, 11:22 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 17 2009, 11:22 PM EST
"Listen, why don't you keep your meddling schemes to steal people's organs to yourselves. Let the free market and private health care providers take care of it. So long as there is an agreement and a voluntary exchange, then government has no business meddling in people's private health matters.

No government laws, no regulations, no system compelling or forbidding people to give their organs."
This is a double-edged scalpel ... you'd sure squeal if the government STOPPED meddling in your health affairs by denying health care to smokers or drinkers, fat people or those who hadn't agreed to donate their organs. You can't have it both ways. No body is stealing anything ... only one in a couple of hundred people expire under the right conditions anyway ... it's just ensuring that people don't steal from the system that kept them healthy and let their organs rot for no valid reason.
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Posted Anonymously
18. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Jan 18 2009, 5:47 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 18 2009, 5:47 PM EST
"This is a double-edged scalpel ... you'd sure squeal if the government STOPPED meddling in your health affairs by denying health care to smokers or drinkers, fat people or those who hadn't agreed to donate their organs. You can't have it both ways. No body is stealing anything ... only one in a couple of hundred people expire under the right conditions anyway ... it's just ensuring that people don't steal from the system that kept them healthy and let their organs rot for no valid reason. "
No you are the one who is unaware that it is a double edged scalpel. If you accept that the government should care for smokers and drinkers, then it has to care for all of us, tell us what to eat, how to live our lives and look after our health, which sports and activities are banned, and of course this places the government in charge of making all medical and health related decisions. You even admit that "one in a couple hundred" can have their organs confiscated.

Who are you or I to decide what constitutes a valid reason ? People have religious and personal preferences, and I certainly don't want to be an organ farm for our government. If I were to donate organs, I would do so in the smartest way - through private agreements.
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Posted Anonymously
19. RE: "Obligatory" Organ Donation
Mar 30 2009, 10:19 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 30 2009, 10:19 AM EDT
"
As I said, this system would allow anyone to "opt out" under ground like religion, etc. However, two of the countries where an opt out system has been a complete success are France and Italy, which are heavily Catholic ... who like to be buried whole.

I for one would go to my grave with a lighter soul for having given of myself in the ultimate way ... and I would never feel a thing!
"
Is organ donation obligatory in France? If so, do you happen to know since when?
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